Discovered, explained, told the navigation podcast for digital trends and innovations, presented by #Explore, the online magazine from TÜV NORD.
Julia:
They are simply everywhere in our smartphones, computers, kitchen machines or electronic toys. We are talking about semiconductors. The more digital our world becomes, the more semiconductors there are.
Stefan:
Yes, and many of you remember the semiconductor crisis, especially those who ordered a car and had to wait a very long time for it or are still waiting for it. There are several reasons for this difficult delivery, for one thing, semiconductors are mostly produced just in time, i.e. when they are needed, because they are sensitive and therefore difficult to store, which means that when more and more are needed, you can't fall back on storage capacities. Yes, and then there was also the Corona pandemic. So during the lock downs, even less could be produced, even though demand increased.
Julia:
A world without semiconductors is almost unimaginable, especially when we consider that they are also needed in wind turbines, solar panels or even heat pumps. But what exactly are semiconductors, how is the market developing and what ingenious things have been developed by experts from the TÜV NORD GROUP in Bensheim to support companies that need semiconductors, we now clarify in the current episode of "discovered, explained, told".
Stefan:
And we, that's Julia Mandrion and me, Stefan Genz from TÜV NORD Group Communications. The companies HTV and HTV Conservation have been part of Alter Technology since the beginning of 2023. This is the Aerospace Division of the TÜV Nord Group and the Bensheim-based companies are absolute semiconductor specialists. Holger Krumme is the managing director and we are pleased that you are with us today and that you are, shall we say, making us smarter in this subject area. Welcome, Holger Krumme.
Holger Krumme:
Yes Hello Stefan, I am glad to be with you today and to be able to tell you a little bit about semiconductors or what we ultimately do with semiconductors in our company. Yes, and I am looking forward to your questions.
Stefan:
To put it very simply, semiconductors are yes. Microchips that calculate, store data, execute processes. I would say, perhaps quite abstractly in my words, small computers. Could you perhaps briefly explain to us again at the beginning of our conversation what semiconductors are all about and what makes them so special?
Holger Krumme:
Yes, that is of course the key question today, I think, because you may not have a direct idea of what microchips are. Some of you may have opened an electronic device or seen it open. There are many, many components on it and semiconductors are usually often these microchips. They are black, have many little legs on them and what do they do? The huge advantage that semiconductors have is the potential to automate things, to do very fast computing operations. And yes, to be available for things that humans no longer have to do themselves.
Stefan:
You just described legs. There is a photo on our #Explorer page where you can also see a chip with little legs - very black threads. What are they doing, why are they there?
Holger Krumme:
Yes, these microchips have a lot of connections and are supposed to process a lot of data. Many measured values of temperature, speed. Perhaps any number of things are also to be controlled, for example a motor switched on or off, windscreen wipers perhaps or even the mirror in the car, everything is to function automatically and for this we need one of these little connection legs for each of these functions.
Julia:
I've only heard that semiconductors are usually produced just in time and are also very sensitive components. So what is the reason for that, what makes a semiconductor so sensitive?
Holger Krumme:
Well, semiconductors are only sensitive to a certain extent. Once they have been produced, they can only be processed for a certain amount of time in order to build electronics or a device from them. So from that point of view, they can only be stored to a limited extent.
Julia:
What period of time are we talking about?
Holger Krumme:
Yes, I would say one to two years, once they are installed, then it looks different. Because we have to imagine that there are a lot of semiconductors in a car - often several hundred by now. When they are processed, they last a long time - the car also lasts 15 years, maybe 20 years. The semiconductors also last this long. The problem is the processing. They have to be processed in time, which is why they are often produced just in time or on demand and then sold, because the delivery times for these semiconductors are usually long. At the moment it can be very, very many weeks, so 50/60 weeks. In normal times it is maybe 5 to 6 weeks, so it is not kept in stock, but is usually sold again relatively quickly.
Julia:
You now have HTV Conservation, a real innovation on offer. You manage to make semiconductors last longer. And you just talked about a relatively short period of time, but you even manage to make them last up to 50 years. How do you do that?
Holger Kurmme:
Yes, it's a really great topic, which has also made us a bit famous here in the industry, because there is no one who can offer a similar service. Namely, to store electronics, electronic components for up to 50 years, and that almost without ageing. Yes, how do you do that? You can imagine it like this: what can age in a component? Corrosion - some know it as rust or oxidation - can happen, the surfaces are no longer as beautiful, can no longer be processed - there can even be functional problems with semiconductors. We stop this ageing by low temperatures. A, yes, a certain atmosphere that we have there. A certain mixture of gases, a certain mixture of air, if you like. Then we also have special materials to counteract harmful influences, to compensate for them, so to speak, and to ensure that they do not have a negative impact on the electronics during storage. What makes our storage area so special is that it is very, very safe. Because you can imagine, components that are needed, maybe to build a car or a crane or an object, are very high quality. A medical device, for example. To keep something like that alive for a long time, you have to have these components in stock and keep them in stock for a long time. That's why the component is very important and also valuable for the respective customer who has it stored here with us. In this storage area that we have there, an atmosphere has been created in which no fire can happen.
Stefan:
How exactly can I imagine that?
Holger Krumme:
You can imagine it like this: if you enter the room with a lighter or a match and light it, it goes out immediately. The reason is that there is a special combination, a certain ratio of the gases oxygen and nitrogen. We reduce the oxygen in the area so that no fire can start. You can go in, normally. You have about the same oxygen content as on a mountain at 4000 metres.
Stefan:
You have now already presented the big example, the conservation. At HTV, you also specialise in testing and programming these semiconductors, other chips, sensors or optical components. I have already had the opportunity to visit you and marvel at numerous fully automated large-scale test systems. Maybe you can give me an example of what you're looking at.
Holger Krumme:
Well, there are various reasons. Why do you have to test components? On the one hand, when components are produced, when these chips are produced, there has to be a functional test, which you can imagine as being quite normal, that you just switch on a device and see if it works properly. We do this in large quantities. These semiconductor chips are tested in large quantities, up to several hundred thousand units per day. We check whether the functionality is correct, whether certain values are maintained, whether a certain brightness is produced, whether a certain tone is produced that is correct and has the right pitch. Yes, so there are many possibilities, just as an example, it is precisely checked whether these limits are adhered to and it is also checked whether these components still function at high or low temperatures. A car is used on a skiing holiday, for example, where it can be -20 degrees. The car has to start, the windscreen wipers should work, the heating should work. Yes, and also in the summer when it gets warm. It's often 60 degrees in the car, maybe 100/120 degrees in the engine area. We test these large areas and then check whether these semiconductor chips are working properly.
Julia:
You just said something about delivery times. I think we have all heard, seen and read about the semiconductor crisis in the news over and over again in recent months, and because they are in such short supply, there is also an increased risk that your customers will be supplied with counterfeit components. You check them carefully to see whether they are counterfeit or not. What counterfeits are there and how do you know?
Holger Krumme:
That's a very exciting topic - it almost goes into the field of criminology, what we do there, because some of these components are very valuable. You can see this in the automotive sector, for example. It has been discovered that some cars were or are not available at all because a semiconductor chip was missing. As a manufacturer, you might look at where you can get the component. The company looks at the market, but components are not available through the normal supply chains, through the normal component shops, but you look somewhere - perhaps on the flea market, I say in quotes. Maybe the component is available on the second-hand market, which of course opens the door for counterfeits. A bit of cosmetic work is done, the parts are, so to speak, made up and prepared so that they look exactly like the original part, and then they are sold at high prices. You can imagine that if the car can't be delivered, the manufacturer doesn't care whether he pays another 1€, what the part actually costs, or maybe 10 or 50 or 100€ per component or even 1000€ per component. We have already experienced this at the moment. That means, of course, that there is a huge profit to be made for so-called component counterfeiters and that also drives this market. Yes, there is a lot of money to be made there, but there are also many components that are not original and we have the possibility to detect such things here. We have different types of microscopes. So-called scanning electron microscopes - maybe some of you have heard or seen this at school - or we use chemicals to see if the surfaces are fake, if the labelling is original - we also have X-ray systems. Yes, and with all these methods we then try to find out whether the component is original. And the most important thing: we also check the function. Because there are also components that are original but simply don't work. We also do the electrical test, which is very important. So we don't just find out that it looks the same, maybe it's original, but if it's defective, no one benefits, and that's why we do the electrical test.
Julia:
That sounds a bit like the famous needle in a haystack that you search for and mix. Our listeners don't see it right now.
Holger Krumme:
That's exactly how it is, that's exactly how it is, yes. It's sometimes exciting, so it's not boring in that area.
Julia:
Yes, probably seen it all before, from good to bad falsities.
Holger Krumme:
Yes, yes, certainly. There are many, many areas and the counterfeiters are always coming up with new things, so if you think about it, for a component that costs one euro, you might get 1,000 and then we don't just sell one component, but 1,000 components - then you're already at a high profit.
Julia:
I would say that this black market for counterfeits has developed because we are in this crisis and there is a certain scarcity. What is your assessment? Will things improve a bit next year or will the shortage get worse?
Holger Krumme:
Yes, that's also a good question. It's a bit like looking into a crystal ball, because we don't know what will happen. At the moment, the situation has eased a bit. The situation is no longer quite so bad with the delivery times. So you can get the components again in the normal way. But of course we don't know what will happen in the future. Let's assume, for example, war in Taiwan or with Taiwan. Then I am very, very sure that there will be an impact on the ability to supply semiconductors. Taiwan is one of the largest semiconductor manufacturers in the world. For this reason, the USA and Europe are increasingly trying to produce their own semiconductors, or to get the production to Europe or the USA.
Julia:
The EU plans to have significantly more semiconductors produced in Europe by 2030. Until now, I think it was the USA and China that were the top dogs. How would you classify this development - are we on the right track or is there really still a lot to do?
Holger Krumme:
At least the first step has been taken. That is important. In the past, semiconductor production has tended to move away, larger productions have been relocated, which has been very detrimental to our European sector. Yes, things are turning around a bit, and that is very good. At the moment, I don't yet believe that the effort that is now being made will be enough, but we will certainly be able to observe it and see to what extent we might have to take additional steps. More investments are also important so that a wave gets going, a process gets going, so that the first companies then also manufacture here, so that others then follow, because the competences are then here. In Germany, this is certainly quite well positioned. For example, we have the area around Dresden, which is, so to speak, the semiconductor Mecca of Germany and Europe. So there are good opportunities for other industries, the semiconductor industry, to settle there and that is of course also interesting for us, because we test the semiconductors when they are manufactured in Europe or in Germany, we naturally have the best conditions to be available there as a service provider in the area of testing or also for processes, developments and research projects.
Stefan:
We have already talked about the availability of semiconductors. If we now take a look at the technical devices that are lying around in everyone's home and say: Man, smartphones, they are constantly evolving. Every year there is somehow a new device that can also iron, do laundry and do more and more. Let's take a look into the future - how will semiconductors develop, what will happen in the future?
Holger Krumme:
Of course, the trend is always: higher, further, faster. As is the case everywhere. It's the same with semiconductors. People want to have more and more functionalities in the semiconductor, it's the same as with computers/PC, they want better, faster image sequences, faster speed, they want higher image quality and everything has to do with the fact that the semiconductors need more capacities faster. Artificial intelligence has suddenly been everywhere for a few weeks now. It's been on our radar for a long time. That, too, is a huge resource hog for computing power. That means semiconductors are needed, faster and faster semiconductors are needed. Semiconductors will continue to develop and the number of units will continue to increase at a very, very significant double-digit rate at least per year.
Stefan:
Incredibly exciting topic, which, if you're not involved with it on a daily basis, you might not necessarily be aware of what's actually in the electronics around you. Many thanks. Holger Krumme, Managing Director of HTV/HTVC, for giving us and our listeners such a great insight today.
Holger Krumme:
Yes, I was pleased to be available for questions. If you are interested in the topic, you can find more information on our website. I think there will also be a link somewhere in the podcast in a description text.
Julia:
Exactly - that's actually my keyword. We'll put all the information you just told us into the show notes and say thank you very much again. I have also learned a lot again today. Yes, dear listeners, that's it for today's episode, if you liked it, leave us 5 stars in your podcast app, tell others that we exist, recommend us to friends and family and, above all, join us again in two weeks' time when the next episode of "discovered, explained, told" appears.